The Inner Rhythms Podcast

Episode 44 - Exploring Psychotherapy to Support Mental Health for Fertility & Gynecological Issues with Alejandra Lozada Andrade

ā€¢ Iris Josephina ā€¢ Episode 44

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šŸš Content Warning: This episode discusses fertility challenges, pregnancy loss, and mental health topics including depression and suicidal thoughts. If you're currently on a fertility journey and struggling, please take care while listening and reach out for support if needed.


Topics covered

  • The impact of fertility on mental health.
  • Why fertility has a profound effect on mental well-being.
  • The connection between stress and fertility.
  • How psychotherapy can support individuals through a challenging fertility journey.
  • Recommended coping mechanisms for navigating a difficult fertility experience.


About Alejandra

Alejandra is an integrative psychotherapist with expertise in relational psychoanalysis, working with clients on a broad range of issues. In the area of fertility, antenatal, and gynecological matters, she has extensive experience supporting individuals facing pregnancy loss, high-risk pregnancies, and birth trauma. Alejandra has also worked with clients experiencing fertility challenges, such as primary ovarian insufficiency and unexplained infertility, among other concerns.


Her approach involves helping clients navigate their fertility options, including IVF, surrogacy, donors, or adoption, while also processing the emotional impact of these experiences. Alejandra also supports clients exploring ā€œchild-freeā€ or ā€œchild-lessā€ lifestyles, considering termination, and managing medical conditions such as endometriosis, PCOS, or adenomyosis.


Alejandra understands how difficult it can be to take the first step toward therapy but also believes in the transformative power of the process. She views personal growth and development as emerging through connection with others, with the therapeutic relationship serving as the foundation for meaningful change. Looking at oneself through the lens of another can offer new, compassionate perspectives that can be life-changing.


Alejandra completed her undergraduate studies at Oxford and Georgetown Universities, graduating with honors. She earned her Masterā€™s degree in Integrative Counselling and Psychotherapy from Regentā€™s University. She has gained experience at Help Counselling, West London Centre for Counselling, City Pregnancy Counselling and Psychotherapy, and Addiction Therapy.


Additionally, Alejandra has worked internationally for over 20 years with executives facing professional transitions and challenging work environments. She recognizes the unique pressures of corporate life and its effects on personal well-being. Alejandra offers flexible services, working with clients both in-person and virtually, on either a short- or long-term basis. She provides therapy in both English and Spanish.


Where to find Fertility Support London

Website: https://www.fertilitysupportlondon.com 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertility.support 


More about Iris

šŸ’¬Come say ā€˜Hiā€™ on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/cycleseeds/

šŸŽ“Check out our training

https://www.instagram.com/hormone.cycle.coach.training/ https://cycle-seeds.mykajabi.com/hhcc-20242025



Iris Josephina: [00:00:00] In this episode, we are talking about fertility and more specifically fertility issues and mental health. So I want to give a little bit of a heads up for people who are maybe on a fertility journey and are struggling. As you're listening to this episode, maybe it can be triggering for you. So just want to give you a little heads up to take extra care when you are on this journey and are having a little bit of a harder time.

And I had the honor to sit down with Alejandra from Fertility Support London. Who is an integrative psychotherapist with experience in relational psychoanalysis and she works with clients on a wide range of issues and in terms of fertility and to natal and gynecological issues. She has experience working with clients facing pregnancy loss, high risk pregnancies and birth trauma.

And she's also supported clients dealing with fertility [00:01:00] difficulties, such as primary ovarian insufficiency, unexplained infertility, among other issues. And in such situations, her work involves helping clients assess fertility options, such as IVF, but also surrogacy, donors, or adoption. and process emotions that arise from such situations.

And she's also supported clients who are exploring a child free or childless lifestyle, considering a termination, and also coping with medical issues, such as endometriosis, PCOS, or adenomyosis. And she really understands how hard it can be to take the first step to start therapy. But she also knows how rewarding and liberating this process can be.

And she really believes that we grow and develop in connection with others. And that the crucible [00:02:00] for change lies within the therapeutic relationship. And I think the conversation that we had about fertility and mental health is one that we, as in all of us, do not have enough. I feel that mental health is Maybe put on the backseat when we are on fertility journeys, but the experience, the mental experience of a fertility journey is very much in the front seat and very much in our face.

So I'm very grateful for the work that Alejandra does and the crucial knowledge that she has shared in this interview. I hope that you get something valuable out of it. Let us know what you feel and think after listening to this episode. And know that we both are available if you need to talk about your own fertility issues.


[00:03:00] You're listening to the podcast of Iris Josephina. If you're passionate about exploring the menstrual cycle, cyclical living, body wisdom, personal growth, spirituality, and running a business in alignment with your natural cycles, you're in the right place. I'm Iris. I'm an entrepreneur, functional hormone specialist, trainer, and coach.

And I'm on a mission to share insights, fun facts, and inspiration I discover along the way as I run my business and walk my own path on earth. Here. You'll hear my personal stories, guest interviews, and vulnerable shares from clients and students. Most people know me from Instagram, where you can find me under at cycle seeds, or they have been a coaching client or student in one of my courses.

I'm so grateful you're here. Let's dive into today's episode.

Welcome everyone to a new episode of The Planting Seeds Podcast. I am sitting here today with [00:04:00] Alejandra. Welcome to the show. 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Thank you so much for having me here, Iris. 

Iris Josephina: Yeah, we are going to be talking about a topic I think is so important in the fertility space because you focus on fertility and mental health.

And I'm curious whether you can share a bit more about your work with us. 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yes, of course. So I am a psychotherapist, that specializes in fertility, gynecological, and the antenatal issues. I founded this organization that is called Fertility Support. It's, the only UK based psychotherapy practice that works with clients dealing on, on those issues.

So it's great to be here too. Continue to raise awareness about the important side of fertility, which is the mental health repercussions of the journey. 

Iris Josephina: Yeah, and what would you say is the impact of fertility [00:05:00] on our mental health from your perspective? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Well, I think the impact is very important. It's sadly overlooked, and the research shows that individuals going through fertility treatments are at an increased risk of developing anxiety, depression, and stress related disorders.

for example, there was an article on the, on the BBC recently, talking about a UK study that I think involved around 1,300 individuals, and it found that 90 percent of women going through a fertility treatment feel depressed, 40 percent have experienced suicidal feelings, and 10 percent are struggling with suicidal thoughts often or all the time, which is really, really, high numbers when you think about.

90 percent going through depression and then, you know, the acuteness of the depression that manifests itself in suicidal feelings. And it's not only women, but also men. One study [00:06:00] from 2018 showed that as many as 93 percent of men reported that their well being has been affected by the experience or concerns regarding fertility.

So the numbers are really, really high. And, when I speak with other practitioners, nutritionists and infraflexologists or others, and I share these numbers, they actually say, I think it's wrong. I think it's 100%. Like everybody that I work with is, is really struggling because it's a very difficult journey.

Iris Josephina: Yeah, definitely. Honestly, I'm a little bit shocked about how high these numbers are. Yeah. Like I haven't personally looked into this specific part of fertility treatments and fertility issues versus mental health, but these numbers are really shocking. 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yeah, it's very overwhelming to hear the numbers and also the acuteness of the difficulties when we're talking about suicidal [00:07:00] ideation.

Iris Josephina: Yeah, especially that. I was really shocked when you mentioned that. And why does fertility have such a profound impact on our mental health? Why do you think that so many people express so many struggles? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: I think there are different stressors, some of them are physical and some are emotional. So from a physical perspective, women or men that are going through a fertility journey, they receive hormonal treatments and those hormonal treatments have an impact on their mental health.

for example, they might be, women are often prescribed clomiphene or HMG. And studies show that between 40 and 60 percent of women that are prescribed those medications experience psychological side effects, including mood swings, irritability, and feeling down. So there is definitely a [00:08:00] physical component.

Also, from a physical perspective, I think that the treatments in themselves are very invasive. And so for clients to be proved and tested in many ways is very uncomfortable and has an impact on their mental state. From an emotional perspective, I think one of the key issues is that infertility can challenge people's understanding of how their life will look like.

So they might have thought about a future with a family and, and children and, and so on. And when they start having fertility issues, they start questioning whether this idea of the future will come true. And that thought, that uncertainty can be very destabilizing. Also, going through a fertility journey involves grieving, and by grieving, I not only mean grieving miscarriages, which are unfortunately common and really upsetting, but I'm also talking about other types of [00:09:00] grief.

So, women grieve for the maternity experience they thought they would have. They might grieve not belonging to a community of peers that are having children more easily. So there are different layers to the grieving process that is going on. Also, infertility can challenge individual self esteem and sense of Self before the, a difficult fertility journey.

People can feel that their bodies are able, that they can do things, they can run, they can exercise, they can do many things, and a fertility journey challenges that it, they start questioning whether they, their bodies are failing them, whether they are able to perform the way they thought that they could.

There are other emotional elements to consider, too. There is a connection between fertility and sexuality, so people that are struggling with fertility might, may feel a sense of inadequacy or failure [00:10:00] if they are not unable to fulfill their parent's role. There is also the potential issues within, partners because the infertility can increase tension within a couple, especially if they don't communicate, if the partners don't communicate in the right way, in the right way.

Or if they have different ideas of when to stop or how to move forward. So that can create tension. And lastly, I will say that the fertility journey is very isolating. People do not discuss their fertility journeys openly with friends and family. So. feeling isolated makes this, from a mental health perspective, even more difficult.

So, as you can see, there are so many reasons. There are physical reasons, and then I've listed so many other elements from the emotional perspective. So, it's no wonder that the people feel so stressed and anxious when they are going through a fertility journey. 

Iris Josephina: Yeah, I can [00:11:00] definitely see that. And as you were sharing about this, I wondered whether you In your work, maybe also see people who feel like a number in the system, because this is something that I often hear from my fertility clients, that the way the system is organized and the way that sometimes it may feel a little bit cold or impersonal, that that may add to how people feel mentally.

What's your take on that? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yeah, I think that that's another layer that definitely adds to the discomfort that people can experience during the process. And that coldness, for some people, they feel that their doctors perhaps are, don't care as much or that they are paying enough attention to them. And when clients start experiencing that, then they don't trust the doctors as much.

And when they don't trust their doctors, that, that adds another layer, you know, because they feel like they're putting their [00:12:00] hopes in the hands of someone that perhaps doesn't care as much. about what they are struggling with or what they're dealing with. So that lack of trust and disappointment, frustration adds to an already heightened anxiety.

Iris Josephina: Yeah, definitely. I can totally see that. And with that, obviously also comes some, or maybe even a lot of stress. And how does stress impact fertility, in your opinion? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: So, the relationship between stress and fertility is very complex and still not very well understood. So there is some research that shows that high levels of stress may affect fertility by disrupting hormonal balance and ovulation.

But there are also other studies that suggest that stress might not have a significant impact on fertility. For example, there was a study [00:13:00] that just came out. two months ago that compared men in terms of their anxiety levels, and that study showed that their IVF outcomes were the same regardless of their levels of anxiety.

So it's very complex, and as I said, not fully understood just yet. There are studies that show different things. I think what is more clear is that Chronic acute stress does have an impact on fertility, but that is not the stress that most of our clients are experiencing. Chronic stress is years and years of very, very acute stress.

And so that will have an impact. but it's not the stress of one IVF cycle or a couple of IVF cycles that is going to have an impact on fertility. But in any case, you know, as I said, it's complex, not very understood, but in any case, I don't think it is very [00:14:00] helpful to keep telling individuals to try to relax, to get pregnant, because that, that is only going to make them more stressed, you know?

So, I think the message to people should be that being stressed during a fertility journey is normal. Not to be stressed will be actually a little bit odd because it does make sense that people get stressed because of all the treatments and the hormones and everything. So it is normal. So people shouldn't feel odd for feeling that way, but I think they should try to treat themselves with compassion.

So it's not about saying either I shouldn't feel stress or abandoning. oneself to the stress and saying, okay, well, this is normal, so I should just go with the feelings. We need to try to find a place in the middle where we engage with emotions and valid emotions, but treat those emotions with compassion and try to regulate them in a more effective [00:15:00] ways.

Iris Josephina: Yeah, I totally agree with what you said and the one thing that you mentioned. It's so true. I have heard so many clients as well that people said to them like, Oh, just relax. And then you'll get pregnant. Like it doesn't work that way. And if you focus on it in that way, it'll make somebody even more stressed.

It's like saying to somebody, calm down when somebody is obviously not calm. Yeah, exactly. It's 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: not really validating, right? It's not very respectful of the emotions of that person. So. Yeah, it doesn't seem very compassionate to tell someone just relax to get pregnant. And if that were the case, then great.

We have found a way to make people fertile, which is to give them anxiolytics, which are medications so that people relax. So, but We're not doing that and we're not doing that because that doesn't work. Otherwise, as I said, you know, fertility clinics will be giving left and right meditation so that people just relax.

Oh, they do that? I didn't know that. [00:16:00] No, they don't. That's what I'm saying. Like they don't do it because making people relax will not result in them becoming fertile. So that's what, what I'm trying to say is that if it were true. that relaxation leads to pregnancy, then fertility clinics will be giving away medications to relax, but they are not doing that because it doesn't happen.

It's not that we make people relax and then they get pregnant. Does that make sense? 

Iris Josephina: Yeah. And it's, as you said at the beginning, it's so multi layered, like fertility is so multi layered and there are so many factors that come in when we're talking about fertility. And with that, One of the ways in which you provide support is by providing psychotherapy.

And how do you think psychotherapy can help us deal with a difficult fertility journey? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yeah, so the, I know that your audience is [00:17:00] from different countries and so I am based in the UK. And so we use the word psychotherapy, which in other countries, it's not like the UK system, the UK system. We have.

Psychotherapists, counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists and coaches, and they are all different careers and they have different training requirements and different accreditation bodies. So in, in other countries, it's different. So for example, in Spain, there's not a career called psychotherapy. So they are psychologists generally.

So what I will say is just to, I will explain you how I work, but in terms of your audience, that when they're looking for support, that I think it will be important for them to try to understand what is the mental health environment in their countries and what are the accreditation bodies for.

Psychologists [00:18:00] or psychotherapists and, and go for, if they decide to go for, to look for mental health support to go to the appropriate bodies to, be referred to a psychologist or a psychotherapist or so on, but as a psychotherapist, which is, you know, the profession that we have here. In the UK, the way I will work with a client is thinking about three different layers.

The top layer and the most superficial layer is to help them with tools and techniques that can make their day to day more, comfortable. For example, if a, if a, if a woman has gone through a miscarriage, often they show signs of PTSD, which is actually not very recognized, but it's a very high number of women that show signs of PTSD.

And so they are showing signs of PTSD in this superficial layer. Then the work will be to teach them the protocols to deal with those flashbacks. If they are dealing with anxiety. [00:19:00] The work on this superficial layer will be to show them the tools and techniques to stabilize themselves. So that will be the most superficial layer.

That's not really psychotherapeutic work, it is just tools and techniques like a band aid that makes the day to day more comfortable. The second layer is really psychotherapy, and that is where I will be talking to the clients about their experience and their feelings, and that helps in two ways. One is it offers an opportunity for catharsis so the client can have Relieve himself or herself or themselves of the emotions by talking about them.

So the more they talk about the emotions, the softer the emotions become. So they kind of like calm down as they talk about them. That's a catharsis. And the talking also helps because it increases the insight. So clients begin to understand more in detail why they feel the way they feel. It [00:20:00] might be that.

The fertility journey is triggering a previous experience of grief, for example, and that's something that they need to understand to make sense of the potency of their emotions. So that's how the talking therapy helps, but helping the client understand themselves, their emotions. The third layer is not very often discussed, but it's all the research shows that it's actually the most important part of therapy, which is the relationship between the psychotherapist and the client.

And it's that relationship in itself can be very healing. And I hope that your audience has experienced that, the experience of being in physical or emotional pain and having someone that loves you and cares, you sitting right next to you. Just having that person next to you, even if that person says or does nothing, it will make you feel a little bit better.

And at its best, that's what clients should be [00:21:00] getting from therapy, that they come to therapy and they leave feeling a little bit better. Because they have been with someone with whom they have a relationship that is based on trust, understanding, acceptance, and, non judgment, so that in itself can be very healing.

Iris Josephina: Thank you for clarifying this, and it's really beautiful to hear how you move through all these different layers to support clients. And I just wanted to ask, do you provide your services for people who are going through the fertility journey? birthing people are women or also for the partners, like together.

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: So we have, as part of fertility support, we have individual psychotherapists and couple psychotherapists. So here in the UK, we train differently. So. I specialize in working with individuals, but we do have psychotherapists that work with couples. And so I think the [00:22:00] individual psychotherapist will help one of the partners or a parent that is a solo parent to consider their own emotions and how they are going through the journey.

A couple's psychotherapist is helpful when There are issues within the couple, so it's not to help both at the same time dealing with one issue. It is when the issue has generated conflict in the couple, if that makes sense. So sometimes fertility really takes a toll on the relationship and the partners become a little bit frustrated with one another or they are not communicating effectively.

That's when a couple's therapist can work with a couple to help. address those couples issues. 

Iris Josephina: Okay, thank you for clarifying that. And with that, I actually also wonder, do you think it should be just part of the general system to just get mental support [00:23:00] on top of the physical support that you get at a fertility clinic.

I've always thought about this, like, wouldn't it be so nice if people just would receive some emotional and mental support, just in general, on top of the care that they receive? What do you think about that? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yeah, I think that would be fantastic. In the UK, fertility clinics that are registered with the HFEA, which is our regulatory body, those fertility clinics must offer one counseling session to anybody going through a fertility treatment.

So ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ You know, at least it's a start, but it, one session obviously is not enough and it is generally that one session so that the client, considers the implications of going through IVF or surrogacy or others, but at least it's a start, but definitely I agree with you, it would be fantastic if we could offer more, or if [00:24:00] governments will compel fertility clinics to offer a little bit more of, mental health support, In the UK, we also have, I mean, Fertility Support is a private organization, so we offer psychotherapy privately, but there are also wonderful charities that people can access that offer, in some cases, they offer group therapy or You know, you, they, they have helplines where people can call and have a conversation.

So that is the, that too. And I don't know about other countries in Europe, whether they have the same services, but yes, it will be ideal if, if we can, if we could offer therapy as part of the journey. I mean, honestly, I mean, obviously I'm very biased, biased. But I think it will be helpful if everybody could have a little bit of therapy sometimes.

I agree. Yes, because I think there is this book written by a psychotherapist, and I love the title is, [00:25:00] the title is unexamined life. And I loved it because I think that that's what psychotherapy offers. This is an opportunity to examine your life so that you don't live and move forward. Because of inertia, you know, they just keep on, or you do things because you think that you're supposed to do them, that you, you know, go and look for a job, marry, have children, get a dog, you know, that you just do things because you think that you should do them.

I think psychotherapy offers you a space to just reflect, you know, does this make sense for me? How am I feeling? How am I experiencing the life that I have created for myself? And I think that makes life a little more, to me at least, worth living because it's more intentional. It's more of a choice. I am living this way.

I'm feeling this way. And it is my choice. I'm not just doing it by inertia. 

Iris Josephina: Yeah, I [00:26:00] definitely agree with that. That this would be so good for everybody to maybe come out of that, like, automated way of living and really taking agency and sovereignty over their own life. Yeah. Yes, exactly. I agree. So if we're stepping away a little bit from like the theory and what psychotherapy is and how it could potentially help, what are some practical coping mechanisms or supporting ways that you recommend to help us navigate a difficult fertility journey?

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yeah. I think that self care is very important. So I know it's very hard for people to go through all the appointments and the treatments and some are working and have other responsibilities, but to try to make sense, make time for self care is important and perhaps do yoga, meditation so that they can calm their nervous system.

I think that's very helpful. [00:27:00] Talking, obviously, as a psychotherapist, is something that I definitely recommend. Talking to, if people can find people they trust, or even a, you know, a charity that offers free psychotherapy, or someone, a friend that is very understanding and empathetic, but to talk and open up about their emotions, I think that is very beneficial.

I think those will be the ideas that I will suggest, but I think I'll just give you one technique or tool perhaps that your audience can use, which is that it's a technique to stay in the present because I think that often when people are going through a fertility journey, they, they start thinking about the future, the worst cases in there.

So they are either in the future, you know, imagining how life will be or what will happen, or they're in the past thinking about A procedure that they have gone through or, or perhaps a difficult experience of pregnancy loss. So [00:28:00] they are moving between the past and the future and they are not in the now.

So trying to be in the now can be very helpful because in the now they are safe, they are okay, hopefully they are safe, they are okay. And so they sang exercise, which is going through the five senses. So just, you know, staying wherever they are in a room in a nice place and taking deep breaths from the belly and then going through their senses, you know, what they can see, what they can hear, what they can taste, what they can touch, what they can smell and focusing on all of those sensations.

That is a way of bringing the mind. To the present moment, and in the present moment, hopefully the client is in a place that they can recognize that there are no immediate threats, and they can be a little bit more calm in the now, and not spiraling thinking about either the future or the past. 

Iris Josephina: These type [00:29:00] of practices, and especially this one, I think is really helpful because it's so simple.

Yeah. I think many people sometimes overcomplicate practices and all the things that they have to do. But this is really something that people can do, like, from the comfort of their own home, in their own time, maybe only for five minutes, so it doesn't feel like a gigantic thing on their schedule. Yeah.

So thank you so much for, for bringing that up and sharing that with us. 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yes, not my pleasure, but it is really about, and I will recommend it when a client or an individual going through a fertility journey, when they notice that they're spiraling and thinking about the worst cases scenario, or what happens if this doesn't go this way, or if, you know, they think about all the different scenarios.

Just to bring the mind to the now, they can use other mindful exercises. There are so many and they are recordings on YouTube and on podcasts [00:30:00] and so forth. This one is just very, very easy and I find it very, very effective. 

Iris Josephina: Yeah, me too. Thank you for sharing that with us, and if people want to look you up or learn more about the work that you do, what is the best way to find you and your work?

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yeah, so thank you for asking. So our website is fertility support london.com. It's just one word, fertility support london.com. And then on that website, they can find our email addresses and other contact details, or they can also find us on Instagram. And the Instagram handle is fertility support. Our logo is an FS.

Within a green circle. So that's how they can recognize it's just the green dot with the F S. So fertility dot support without the London and on [00:31:00] Instagram, they can also connect through that channel to us, or there is a link on our Instagram page to our website. 

Iris Josephina: Thank you so much. That's amazing. I feel that.

It can be very relieving for people to know that there is support mentally for when they are on a fertility journey. So, I'm really, really grateful for the work that you do and the things that you offer. And I think I also saw on your website that you also do retreats. Is that right? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: Yes. So we're planning one for the summer.

We're just in the midst of planning it. So if they, if they follow us on Instagram, they we'll be able to see when the announcement comes of with the date and also the therapy in groups. That's something else that we do. 

Iris Josephina: Amazing. I'm so grateful. that you decided to start to offer this work for people because it's so, so necessary.

And I really want to thank you for taking the time to come on [00:32:00] here to share about the importance of mental health support in relation to fertility. Is there anything that you'd like to add before we close off? 

Alejandra Lozada Andrade: No, just to thank you for inviting me. I also think that The work that you do is, is amazing and offering a holistic solution for people that are dealing with fertility and other gynecological issues.

I think the idea of offering holistic support is fantastic. And I see your work and my work as complimentary because it's, it's not just, you know, that. It's about mental health or about, you know, nutrition or about, you know, the experience of birthing, which I know that you also help with, you know, it's just to think about it holistically the way you think about it.

I think it makes a lot of sense. So thank you for doing that too. 

Iris Josephina: Ah, thank you. And I see it exactly the same way. We're all Complimentary supporters for people to ensure that they [00:33:00] can live their best lives, really. Yes, exactly. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for your time, Iris.

Okay, this wraps up today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. Want to know more about me? The best way to reach me is via at CycleSeeds on Instagram. And if you heard something today and you think, Oh my god, wow, I learned something new. Feel free to share the podcast on your social media and tag me, or leave a review of rating.

In this way, you help me reach more people like you. Thank you so much.