The Inner Rhythms Podcast

Episode 51 - Supporting Autonomy: How Midwifery Approaches can Transform Women’s Health with Margot van Dijk

• Iris Josephina • Episode 51

Share episode

🐚Topics covered

  • Exploring the profession of midwifery and what it means to Margot
  • The importance of autonomy during pregnancy, birth, and beyond, and why it matters.
  • Margot’s views on how midwifery approaches could broaden to encompass the entire spectrum of cyclical and women’s health.


About Margot

Margot has been a midwife for 10 years and became a mother in March 2023. As a midwife, she shares knowledge on Instagram to support pregnant individuals in making autonomous choices around pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. She also teaches other birthworkers about various midwifery topics. Her goal is to provide great maternity care through autonomous birth, while fostering more joy and fulfillment for birthworkers.


Where to find

Website: www.vraagdevroedvrouw.nl 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vroedvrouwmargot/ & https://www.instagram.com/vraagdevroedvrouw/ 


More about Iris

💬Come say ‘Hi’ on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/cycleseeds/

🎓Check out our training

https://www.instagram.com/hormone.cycle.coach.training/ https://cycle-seeds.mykajabi.com/hhcc-20242025


 

[00:00:00] Iris Josephina: Are you thinking about starting or nourishing a career in menstrual cycle health? Then consider joining our nine month online holistic hormone and cycle coaching certification training. In this training, you get science backed and evidence-based education, as well as teachings about the somatic aspects of having a menstrual cycle, functional nutrition, hormone testing, and much, much more.

[00:00:25] Iris Josephina: We will have incredible live group sessions and you will get guidance from me. There will also be amazing guests teaching lectures from experts in the field, and at the end you'll receive an official certificate of completion that is globally recognized. As a listener of The podcast. You receive an additional a hundred Euros off when you use the Code Podcast.

[00:00:47] Iris Josephina: When you sign up, click on the link in the show notes to learn more. This is such a rooting, grounding episode, or at least it was for me when I recorded it with Marco, who is a midwife. And there's actually a funny story. We tried to record this podcast a couple of years ago, and then somehow we lost the audio.

[00:01:11] Iris Josephina: It just would not save. So I'm really happy that today we got to record the podcast again and again. It was an absolute gem and I just love the way that Marjo approaches midwifery. In this episode, we talk about what midwifery means for her, what her journey has been in the last 10 years with midwifery in her profession, in her field, how she has developed herself.

[00:01:42] Iris Josephina: And how she's using her skills and her knowledge and her wisdom as a midwife. We spoke about her approaches to midwifery and she also shared about her own personal journey of becoming a mother and how her own birth experience has shaped how she looks at her work, how she does her work. And for me it was such a, like I said, such a rooting, no nonsense down to earth episode where, yeah, I just got to sit down with this incredible woman sharing the ins and outs about midwifery, what it is, how we can benefit from having a midwife as our care provider, whether it is in our journey of becoming a parent or in our cyclical health journey.

[00:02:37] Iris Josephina: we spoke about autonomy. What is autonomy when it comes to our bodies? What is autonomy when it comes to birthing our babies? Why is autonomy important? What happens when there is no autonomy available to us, or we feel that is not available to us? And the way that Majo just approaches this is so enlightening and so clear, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation, and I really hope that it gives you some insights and some tools and some perspective on how to approach your journey if you are deciding to become a parent in this lifetime and to birth your children into this world.

[00:03:25] Iris Josephina: And this episode is also for people who work in birth because Meau also offers support and knowledge to people who work in birth. And I think she does that in an absolutely unique way. And in the episode she'll share how she does that and why it is important as birth workers that we have access to information like this.

[00:03:51] Iris Josephina: And yeah. Without further ado, enjoy listening to this podcast. Let us know what you think about it. You can find all Mar Ho's information in the show notes if you wanna reach out to her, if you wanna follow her work and enjoy. This episode, and if you have a moment, feel free to share with us what you think.

[00:04:12] Iris Josephina: And feel free to rate the podcast. It really helps us to spread information like this. Hello, friends. My name is Ris Josephina. I'm your host and you are listening to the Planting Seeds podcast. On The Planting Seeds Podcast, we explore how we can cultivate a more gentle relationship with our cyclical bodies, the earth, each other, and the world around us through using our senses, science, the subtle and the sacred.

[00:04:47] Iris Josephina: On planting seeds, we talk about all those topics you've always wanted to talk about. We are shamelessly opening up the conversations that we all so desperately need to settle in our precious bodies and relate to each other in a more open. Truthful and empowered way. I'm so glad you're here today.

[00:05:24] Iris Josephina: Hello everyone, and welcome to a new episode of The podcast. Today, I am sitting here with a midwife, Margot van Dijk. Welcome to the show. 

[00:05:35] Margot van Dijk: Thank you. 

[00:05:37] Iris Josephina: I'm very happy that we're here again because we tried to record this episode and then something went wrong when we st. When we tried it. Oops. So I'm really happy that you could make some space and time to be here with us today and to speak about midwifery and, autonomy of our bodies and midwifery approaches. And before we start, I wanted to ask you whether you can maybe take a moment to introduce yourself and share about all the beautiful things that you're doing in the world with your profession in midwifery and how you've expanded that.

[00:06:16] Margot van Dijk: Yeah, definitely. So I am a midwife now for over 10 years. And in those 10 years, I think a lot has changed too. I started as a 22-year-old midwife and now looking back to it, I'm like, whoa, I was so young and I had so no clue of the world and motherhood. And at the moment I am in such a different phase of my life where I'm also a mother.

[00:06:42] Margot van Dijk: Recently, my daughter river, she's now seven and a half months old. And that also brings a new layer of depth in my job as a midwife. So apart from working as a midwife, like in the field, in the Netherlands, I've worked in the Netherlands and I've worked in South Africa for a little bit as well. And at the moment I'm working in a different way.

[00:07:05] Margot van Dijk: So I'm still a midwife. I have some clients, but I also build a platform, it's called Frac Thera, which basically means Ask the Midwife. And it's a platform where I share in depth information for both pregnant people and birth workers. 'cause I really struggle. I think the one theme in those 10 years, even as a 22-year-old midwife, the overall theme is that I struggled with guidelines, not so much 'cause I'm against guidelines.

[00:07:36] Margot van Dijk: 'cause that's always what people think. oh, you're against guidelines, but I find it so it takes the heart out of the midwifery care, I think. Because. A guideline is just a guideline and a person is like so much more than a guideline. you, you don't fit in the guideline, you don't fit in the research.

[00:07:57] Margot van Dijk: And what I really miss is like a place where in Dutch, following the Dutch guidelines, there's more space to discover, hey, what does research say and why is the guideline how it is? But are there also maybe alternative options? 'cause they are there and also often covered by research as well. So yeah, I built that platform and that's now two years ago and that's going really well as well.

[00:08:22] Margot van Dijk: So I'm really happy with that. And it's, I think like the right information or more like spectrum of information, I think really helps women or pregnant people to make their own decisions and already take like ownership. Of the process of being pregnant, giving birth, and becoming a parent. And I realized that if I only talk to pregnant women, that I miss one step.

[00:08:50] Margot van Dijk: So this is why I really included the birth workers. And at the moment, I think the birth workers are more my, yeah, the main group of people that I work with on the platform. So I write articles, give master classes, and provide information in many different ways. So that's how it looks like right now. 

[00:09:07] Iris Josephina: I think what I really love about this initiative that you took to start this platform is that you offer an opportunity for nuance and complexity.

[00:09:16] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:09:17] Iris Josephina: Because the human body is so nuanced and so complex. And 

[00:09:22] Iris Josephina: I really feel with this platform, you're inviting people to open up their minds. 

[00:09:27] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:09:27] Iris Josephina: To just look at different, what you said different. Options. And I also feel when people see a whole Scala, a whole spectrum in of options, they also have more ability to feel heard and seen.

[00:09:41] Iris Josephina: Because as you say, not everybody falls in this tiny guidelines. So I'm really appreciative of you like taking a stance and taking leadership in this, in our country to offer this to people. So thank you for that. 

[00:09:54] Margot van Dijk: Yeah, thanks. Yeah. And I think the word nuance is the right word for sure.

[00:09:59] Margot van Dijk: Like I think nuance is my middle name because like it's so complex. It's like you have on the one side, like the medical technology birth world and on the other side, like the supernatural birth world. Yeah. But there's so much space in between and you never know. Like I also, with my own birth story, I really discovered, again, like you don't know what's gonna unfold for you.

[00:10:24] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. And then you can be stubborn and only wanna look in one direction. But if you know the full spectrum, then you can make like truly Yeah. Choices that really empower you basically. 

[00:10:35] Iris Josephina: And I also loved in the beginning that you started this when you were 22. I became a doula when I was 23. Oh, 

[00:10:43] Margot van Dijk: yeah, 

[00:10:43] Margot van Dijk: yeah, 

[00:10:46] Iris Josephina: And I think we are like from the same yeah. From the same age group. Like I'm 33 now. Yeah, me too. So this is like 10, 10 years ago. and I loved how you said oh, I was really a baby and I didn't know anything. And I feel, yeah, I feel the same way about this in this field and also how you're even a step further.

[00:11:05] Iris Josephina: 'cause you're ready. Crossed that bridge to parenthood yourself. So I feel you even have a broader spectrum of looking at the entirety of the birth continuum. So I really love that you mentioned that. And it also, I think people listening, especially birth workers too, like it also gives us permission to go oh yeah, we're like on a constant learning journey.

[00:11:28] Iris Josephina: Like it never stops. 

[00:11:30] Margot van Dijk: Definitely. It 

[00:11:31] Iris Josephina: never stops. 

[00:11:32] Margot van Dijk: No, it doesn't. 

[00:11:33] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And I also love how you mentioned that your own experience gave you. Information as well and gave you Yeah. Knowledge about this. And I think that's the beauty about working with people and their bodies and being a person and being in a body.

[00:11:51] Iris Josephina: So there is all the research out there, but we also have our own personal experience, our own interaction with our clients. So I love that you brought that up. And yeah. With that, I'm also curious like where you're standing now. The profession of a midwife, what does that mean to you at this point in your life where you are?

[00:12:15] Margot van Dijk: that's a cool question. what it means to me is that I think from being a midwife, I think in Dutch we have kind of two words for being a midwife. The one is yeah, like the medical midwife And we have a word that means wise women. And I think I transformed over the past 10 years from the like medical midwife with only knowledge on the medical scope of practice to.

[00:12:42] Margot van Dijk: A wise woman midwife where I feel I am more a guide to women and their partners. So more like in those years, what really changed is that I realized like I do not know any better than them. 'cause even though I studied and I've attended, I don't know. I've witnessed 500 births or something like that.

[00:13:04] Margot van Dijk: So I could say oh, I'm really experienced and I am, like I am in a way. I'm not unexperienced, but I never know how it is to be the other person. So I see more and more that I provide information and, the care that they want me to give, I offer them, but not so much in a, I know better way.

[00:13:27] Margot van Dijk: I think that's the biggest difference where I'm now, and the funny thing is, in the beginning I said like my job as a midwife. And then I've always said like being a midwife doesn't feel like a job to me, but now I'm a mother. I must say it became a job, which is really weird. This is more it puts so much in perspective and I think it's 'cause my baby is still a baby.

[00:13:48] Margot van Dijk: I see that with other my friends as well. the first year you're just like one unity with your baby. So all the rest is so different. So at the moment, yeah, it feels like a job. And that's also a process in me at the moment, like feeling oh yeah, I don't know, it's weird. It's still a passion, but it's a bit more yeah, maybe I finally have some boundaries in there.

[00:14:12] Margot van Dijk: So something like that. Like it could be a midwife all the time, 24 7. And my colleagues would call me anytime and they would show up and I'm like, okay, no, I also need some time. And heck yes. It has changed for sure. Yeah. And then also becoming a mother. I think the coolest thing about becoming a mother is just that it really confirmed my beliefs on giving birth.

[00:14:38] Margot van Dijk: Like I, I've always felt like it does not matter. It should not matter where you give birth. I really wanted to give birth at home, but I ended up in the hospital. I chose to go to the hospital. And it was a great experience and I felt so saved and so loved and so seen. And so it was such an amazing experience.

[00:14:58] Margot van Dijk: And then I was confirmed again, oh yeah, this is how it should be. It should not matter if you need medical help or not. Like it should be a great experience above all. and I was, yeah, I was in the lead as a mother and that was, yeah, really confirming how important that is. 'cause now it's just.

[00:15:15] Margot van Dijk: It feels just like an A. Yeah. Powerful experience to me. Where I see nowadays a lot of women who where, yeah, it's a traumatic experience to them. Yeah. And that is ah, so sad. And that's more than sad. It's like terrible. Yeah. And that is I think, one of my main reasons why I do what I do. 'cause I don't think it should not be necessary.

[00:15:39] Iris Josephina: I agree. 

[00:15:39] Margot van Dijk: It should be a good and strong and powerful. Experience 

[00:15:43] Iris Josephina: and what you're touch upon here is actually the topic of autonomy. Like you had, it sounds like you had or felt that you had autonomy over your entire experience. 

[00:15:57] Margot van Dijk: Definitely, 

[00:15:57] Iris Josephina: yeah. How important is that to you and, for people who actually don't know what that is, could you describe.

[00:16:05] Iris Josephina: What that could look like because it's, a different experience for everybody. But you just brought up that for some people it can be traumatic and then for some people it's a very empowering experience where autonomy is at the center. 

[00:16:20] Iris Josephina: Could you maybe express what autonomy means and how that kind of opposes or is very different from a traumatic experience?

[00:16:30] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. So what autonomy is that. You decide what happens to you, like you have a say, no, not, it's more than having a say, like you decide, you say yes or no to anything that happens basically during the birth. And then often we talk about medical interventions or interventions that you have. yeah, that you decide, okay, I do want an internal exam, or you don't, I do wanna go in a bathtub, or you don't, I wanna be on hands and knees, or.

[00:17:02] Margot van Dijk: Standing or so you're in the lead basically. And then sometimes in making decisions in that you will need knowledge or information from your provider care provider or maybe from other people who join your birth or at your birth. It's not oh, I know everything better and I don't want any help.

[00:17:23] Margot van Dijk: That's not the same. Maybe you need help or maybe you want help. Like I felt I really. After a long time of having contractions, I really felt like I want an epidural right now. I didn't want it, but I, knew I needed it. And because I made the decision myself and my colleague, my midwifery colleague, she was at my birth and she would give me alternative options.

[00:17:49] Margot van Dijk: But I really felt like no, all these alternative options, I was just give me the freaking epidural. I would never think I would beg for it, but I did. And it was like, I must say like it was a great, the epidural itself was almost like orgasmic. To have the epidural was such a relief for me because it was exactly what I needed at that moment, and I would've never, ever thought that I would ask it.

[00:18:13] Margot van Dijk: So it's funny. so sometimes you prepare in a way and you think you know what you want, but yeah. Life gives you sometimes something different to cope with. So for me, autonomy in that situation was, is that I gathered knowledge from my sister who was there and my midwife who was there, but I was the one who would feel like, oh yeah, what is right for me and what do I want?

[00:18:34] Margot van Dijk: What do I need? And because I was hurt in that and respected in that, and because I felt safe, it was a great experience. And I think those three things are very important when it comes to an experience. So would often make it like, I don't know exact numbers, but 80, 90% of the traumatic experiences are at birth is not because there was a complication.

[00:18:55] Margot van Dijk: It's because there was no communication or lack of communication, so somebody did not feel heard, seen, respected. That's basically where it goes wrong, and because it's such a big life event, that's something you'll take with till, yeah. Till the end of your days basically. 

[00:19:13] Iris Josephina: I love when you said that sometimes.

[00:19:16] Iris Josephina: You know that you think what you want, but as the experience arises, there may be a whole other arsenal of things that you want that you maybe never thought of that you would want. And I think that's also One of the key points of the process of birth. It's something that I've seen coming back with clients over and over again.

[00:19:39] Iris Josephina: That people, make up their minds about something in the process, and then in the moment it's like the total opposite that they want. Yeah. It's funny and it's funny, but it also shows that there is such a big. Requirement for flexibility. 

[00:19:56] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:19:57] Iris Josephina: In this experience, 

[00:19:58] Margot van Dijk: that is it a hundred percent.

[00:20:00] Iris Josephina: Yeah. That I think a lot of people miss. 

[00:20:02] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:20:03] Iris Josephina: In preparation and in the moment itself. oh, we have this view, so we have to stick to the plan, and in birth it's You could do anything but stick to the plan. 

[00:20:13] Margot van Dijk: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That is the best way to put it. For sure. Plus, like it's a balance.

[00:20:20] Margot van Dijk: Like you need to know what you want. Yeah. as in, I always say like you have to create your favorite scenario for birth. 'cause if you don't know what you want, you're never gonna get it. if you are not clear about it, like I was clear, I want a home birth and I want those people around, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:20:36] Margot van Dijk: Because if I, yeah, if you leave it all open, then yeah, then you don't know at all what's gonna happen. But yeah, you need to also prepare for okay, what if I want medical help or what if there's a complication? I. Because if you know those scenarios and you can't know everything 'cause you're not a midwife, most people are not midwives.

[00:20:54] Margot van Dijk: Like I felt lucky to be a midwife 'cause I had a discussion with the midwife in the hospital about medication and stuff, which I think normal other people would not have. But I do. I disagree, but yeah. But if you know a bit more about what yeah, what other options or yeah, what can happen then I think that helps flexibility.

[00:21:18] Iris Josephina: Yeah, I think if you have knowledge, the opportunity for flexibility broadens for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to say that these days people value like scientific knowledge and preparation and doing things in a certain way. So in the ways that culturally, our brains are trained to cope with situations. It can be really helpful for people that they have all the information so that they can Yeah, be flexible because security and knowledge is often a requirement for people to open up.

[00:21:52] Iris Josephina: Yeah. To flexibility because they have the semi control of this is what can potentially happen and these are my options. 

[00:22:02] Margot van Dijk: yeah. But it does also, you also need like a. Or what I needed, I don't think it maybe applies to everyone, but what I needed is also like being in tune. Being in tune with myself, listen to myself and really feel what is going on in my body and feel.

[00:22:19] Margot van Dijk: What my body needs or what I think my body needs. So yeah, we're, but we're sometimes a bit maybe too stuck, but that's always a difficult, because my whole platform is about knowledge and science and blah, blah, blah. but I do think the other part is also really important to learn that. But yeah. How do you learn it?

[00:22:37] Margot van Dijk: I don't know. It's a kind of a skill. Maybe just life learns you the skill or so. To learn to listen to yourself and take yourself serious and Yeah. 

[00:22:47] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And I feel, especially in the Netherlands, we could be supported maybe a little bit more to get into the somatics of what it means to, to be the body and learn how to listen to the primary needs of our bodies.

[00:23:02] Iris Josephina: oh, when am I tired? When am I hungry? When do I need to pee? 

[00:23:05] Margot van Dijk: yeah. 

[00:23:06] Iris Josephina: And I think these can really help to sense. The body in the moment. 

[00:23:11] Margot van Dijk: Definitely. 

[00:23:12] Iris Josephina: And I feel all the things that we are talking about right now, we are specifically talking about pregnancy and birth and obviously also postpartum and beyond.

[00:23:22] Iris Josephina: I. What is your stance or your view around how midwifery, and specifically the midwifery that we know in the Netherlands and the approaches that we have where autonomy is at the base, how could these potentially broaden to the whole spectrum of cyclical and women's health? 

[00:23:42] Margot van Dijk: I think it is like undeniably all one, like I wish also that midwifery would be women's health.

[00:23:51] Iris Josephina: Yeah. 

[00:23:51] Margot van Dijk: Not only the. Pregnancy, birth, postpartum. 'cause as midwife we see also so much more than just pregnancy, birth, postpartum. But then we don't have all the knowledge or experience yet. so I think it's, it is connected anyway, but I think it would be great if we start so much earlier with girls and boys, or Yeah.

[00:24:11] Margot van Dijk: With children or teenagers anyway, to inform on their body and what also what you're saying to somatic experiences and. How it works and how fertility works and et cetera. So that would be like, oh my, yeah. That's such a dream world for me. If that would be more the case. Yeah. 'cause that's where it starts, right?

[00:24:31] Margot van Dijk: Because suddenly you're pregnant and then suddenly, oh, you have to make decisions about yourself and be autonomous and et cetera. And some people are like, but I've never done that before. I've always listened to what other people tell me. It is weird where, yeah, it's a difficult process for some people.

[00:24:45] Margot van Dijk: So it would be nice if it starts a bit earlier. And I think like having a powerful experience around this, it will help, I think in the women's health after being a mother or parent in cyclical health. I think you often see, or I often see that women also take more responsibility over that part of themselves as well.

[00:25:07] Margot van Dijk: After they've been through the process of pregnancy and birth and postpartum. 

[00:25:11] Iris Josephina: Yeah. What I am envisioning, and I've heard, I mean it's very rare, but I've heard for example, some midwives who also trained to, for example, take out and place IUDs and do things like that. Like in my ideal world, we would not have to go to a hospital, for example.

[00:25:31] Iris Josephina: Yeah. To have that done because it's not, you're not sick. It's not an intense. Procedure, it's also procedure that can be done in a safe space. 

[00:25:41] Iris Josephina: With a midwife that you connect with. 

[00:25:43] Margot van Dijk: Definitely. 

[00:25:44] Iris Josephina: So in my perfect view, a midwife could be like this bridge. Yeah. Between the, house arts, so the general GP and the OB gyn that the O-B-G-Y-N, that the midwife could be like an in-between space where.

[00:26:00] Iris Josephina: Women, people with menstrual cycles could go for like a whole range of things that have to do with their fertility, their birth control. Yeah, and their like miscarriage, abortion, like early pregnancy and continuous pregnancy care. 

[00:26:15] Margot van Dijk: I think the IUDs are already in the Netherlands. A lot of midwives do that.

[00:26:19] Iris Josephina: Yeah, they do. 

[00:26:20] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. More and more the country. Whole contraception part. Yeah. But then the miscarriage and the abortion part, like there's a big world, like I think there's a lot to win there. 

[00:26:31] Iris Josephina: Yeah. In my experience, what I witnessed as a doula with clients, and also when I did my internship at a midwifery clinic in the Netherlands, is that very often when.

[00:26:43] Iris Josephina: Something is potentially wrong. There is a lot of okay, now you have to go to the hospital and they completely go out of the picture. 

[00:26:52] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:26:53] Iris Josephina: While midwives, in my opinion, have this, more of this sensitivity of this continuous care and make it less, yeah. Of a medical distance experience. And I would love to see that differently where.

[00:27:08] Iris Josephina: Women could maybe continue receiving that support from a midwife. 

[00:27:12] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:27:12] Iris Josephina: Instead of going into the medical space immediately and then being sent home and then sometimes not even receive a checkup, like also heard that. 

[00:27:22] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. I think in the Netherlands like a bit of a, on the one side we have the group practices where midwives like have more clients together.

[00:27:31] Margot van Dijk: And then we have the caseload midwives, and it's a small group. I was hoping to say that the group is growing, but I think it's like growing, but then there's also always people quitting. Yeah. So it's still a small group. The case of midwives in the Netherlands and yeah, I am a case of midwife myself as well.

[00:27:47] Margot van Dijk: And then we do stay and we do give, yeah, much more postpartum care too. Like longer time and more intensive. 'cause it's weird. We're so much focused on pregnancy and birth, where postpartum is the biggest thing. Like pregnancy is nine months. Postpartum of a birth is like maybe, nah, if you're unlucky or so, two or three days.

[00:28:11] Margot van Dijk: That's it. And then postpartum we're not really talking about it so much, but that's yeah. Almost forever, right? Yeah. Postpartum. But at least the first year and then, yeah. There's so little focus on that part. 

[00:28:25] Iris Josephina: Yeah, there definitely is. Before we dive into that a little bit, maybe you can briefly explain what a caseload midwife is, because I don't know whether people listening Oh yeah.

[00:28:34] Iris Josephina: Know what that is. 

[00:28:36] Margot van Dijk: So a caseload midwife, I think there's different options, but one I am as a caseload midwife is my caseload is I take two to four, now two more, two 'cause I have a baby myself. But before I kind of four or five. women a month. so births a month and then two or three months a year, like it's a holiday 'cause you also need time off and you're twenty four seven on call or I'm twenty four seven on call and I take care of my clients throughout the whole cycle of pregnancy, birth, postpartum.

[00:29:08] Margot van Dijk: And it's much more intensive than the regular midwifery care in the Netherlands, where it's 10 to 15 minutes per checkup. Or that's more checkup. And with me it's more an in-depth consultation. Often, like one and a half hour each time. And then, yeah, it's so different. It's almost like you can't compare.

[00:29:27] Margot van Dijk: 'cause it's like I spent so much time with my clients and they're, yeah. I think because I think the relationship between the midwife and the client and the pregnant woman and the partner, if there's a partner. That is like for me, the base. The tru, yeah, the base of trust where you can work together.

[00:29:45] Margot van Dijk: And then you can talk about a subject like autonomy and what, yeah, what does it mean to you and are you more on the medical technology side or more on the natural side, and how do you think about guidelines and can you also. Carry the responsibility of your decisions. 'cause there's also a lot of people who prefer following a guideline.

[00:30:05] Margot van Dijk: 'cause it feels too difficult to carry the responsibility for the outcome if you don't follow a guideline. And you're not required to follow a guideline, by the way, but. Yeah, that asks for a different approach. And then in the Netherlands, the regular midwifery is more like often bigger practices, so three to eight midwives.

[00:30:24] Margot van Dijk: And when you're pregnant you see them all. And it's like when you give birth, it's like just who's on call at that moment. So you often don't know your midwife. Maybe if you're lucky you do, 'cause you've seen her more times, but maybe you've seen her only once or never. And then she's at your birth. And then there's more births for them as well, When I worked in a regular midwifery practice, I would have shifts with two, three, four births in 24 hours. Oh wow. So that is like intense. It's very different. There's no, it's oh, two women giving birth at the same time and you drive in between, or they both go to the hospital rooms next to each other, it's more, yeah, it's different. Whereas now, like I, if somebody gives birth, I'm at that birth, and if somebody else gives birth at the same moment, then my caseload midwifery colleague goes there. So yeah, it's very different. 

[00:31:16] Iris Josephina: Yeah. The profession of a midwife, like actually the load it takes of your own capacity.

[00:31:24] Iris Josephina: It's quite a lot. I think people really underestimate what it means 

[00:31:28] Margot van Dijk: a hundred percent 

[00:31:29] Iris Josephina: practically to be a midwife. 

[00:31:33] Margot van Dijk: Yeah, it's practically, and it's also the, it sounds maybe a bit dramatic when I say it out loud, but it is how it feels. I don't always feel the, but like we work with life and death, like we work on the 

[00:31:49] Iris Josephina: Yeah.

[00:31:50] Margot van Dijk: Border or I sometimes say we work through the same gate, you know where life goes and where death goes. Yeah. And. The responsibility that comes with that. Like I'm not responsible for the outcome. 'cause I can't, I'm not like God or however you would call it. Like I can't decide on life or death luckily, but the feeling of it.

[00:32:11] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. That you work with life and death can sometimes be very, intense, especially when complications arise. Yeah. Or when somebody wants something outside of guidelines or when somebody wants something very different than you think is best for them, et cetera, then you, yeah. Sometimes there's conflicts that arise.

[00:32:29] Margot van Dijk: For sure. 

[00:32:30] Iris Josephina: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. You gave me goosebumps. Yeah. When you mentioned that because. I think a lot of people don't understand also the mental and emotional Flexibility you need to have as a midwife to just do the profession. Yeah. To just do whatever it takes to be there to support a client.

[00:32:52] Iris Josephina: And also what you just mentioned, when someone wants something that falls out of the guideline, you need to use your moral compass and see how it fits into the situation. Yeah. But also. how does that fit into what is legally possible and how does that yeah. Work for you? How does that work for your client?

[00:33:10] Iris Josephina: Where's the liability? Yeah. So all these things, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. It's a huge responsibility and I have so much respect for people who, dare to be on the frontline of this and do everything they possibly can to support their client, because eventually that's what you do.

[00:33:33] Margot van Dijk: And then I think for me it makes it easier to be a caseload midwife. 'cause then I build a relationship with my client. And in that relationship I can also, like I work with the relationship basically. And then I can also see why other midwives work more in a regular practice. 'cause they like prefer more to be off or, yeah, to work in a different way.

[00:33:54] Margot van Dijk: And I don't think it's our wrong way, but for me, this is really meaningful to me. Yeah. To work this way. 

[00:34:00] Iris Josephina: Yeah, I think it's beautiful to be able to work this way, and I also feel really blessed that, it's still possible in the Netherlands. Yeah. Like I, I worked and lived in countries where I worked as a doula in Malta, and the profession of a doula is like completely illegal. Yeah. there is no protection at all. And here in Portugal it's a little bit different, but it's still like tricky. Yeah. Like right now it's intense and, even as a midwife here, it's I mean I'm not a midwife but I know midwives here, it's a very different experience than in the Netherlands and I think we're really blessed there.

[00:34:42] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. Especially when it comes to home birth. I have to also talk to two midwives in Portugal 'cause I was there and two mid wi midwives, but Oh my, it seemed like that whole responsibility is so much bigger. 

[00:34:53] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And the risk to just support someone. Yeah. Your 

[00:34:57] Margot van Dijk: own risk for yourself as a human being.

[00:35:00] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:35:00] Iris Josephina: Yeah. 

[00:35:01] Margot van Dijk: That's crazy. Like I'm also protected by law. 

[00:35:04] Iris Josephina: Yeah. That's really, we're really fortunate. 

[00:35:06] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. The Netherlands is a great country for that. 

[00:35:08] Iris Josephina: Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely gonna have my babies in the Netherlands, 

[00:35:13] Margot van Dijk: Oh yeah. From wherever. So I flew all the way from Canada to have my baby here. I was like, no.

[00:35:18] Margot van Dijk: Even Canada has a pretty good system, but. Being in that system already in the first little bit, I felt like, oh my, no, I can't give birth here. Only the C-section rate is like 33% where I was. So I was like, no way I'm gonna give birth here. the one in three. That's crazy. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I think the Netherlands is definitely one of the best place in the world to give birth.

[00:35:42] Iris Josephina: Yeah, definitely agree. And if you could share some of your wisdom with both. Pregnant people and birth workers to to close off, what would you say to people who are about to conceive or who are pregnant and what would you say to birth workers in the field of birth? 

[00:36:06] Margot van Dijk: I think for when you're pregnant, oh, number one is for sure, do not forget your postpartum time, make your postpartum time.

[00:36:16] Margot van Dijk: Priority number one, I think above birth. Like to really dive into it, what it means to be postpartum and learn about breastfeeding and learn about, I know all that. Like baby sleep and how to feed yourself and nourish yourself and have a team of people around you. And then I think for birth, next to knowledge about birth.

[00:36:38] Margot van Dijk: 'cause yeah, you are birthing in a system like in a, in, the ideal world. Like you would not need all the knowledge. But in this world where we work in a medical system, I think you need knowledge not only on birth itself, but also on the system, what it means to give birth in the system, not as 'cause it's a terrible system.

[00:36:59] Margot van Dijk: Good, but it can be difficult to navigate in some ways. And therefore, I think it's really important to have a really good birth team. So the people around you who you invite to your birth, super, super important. And if you have a midwife or another care provider or. Who else? and it does not feel okay at your birth, just don't do it.

[00:37:21] Margot van Dijk: Search for somebody else. even if you're 41 weeks, Like switch switch midwives or care provider. 'cause I think your birth team is gonna play a big role in how safe and respected and seeing you will feel. And then for birth workers, I don't know, I think before I would have this idea of Maybe we can change the system together. And then now I'm more at I don't think we can change the system. Or maybe we can like in a, I don't know, very long term way, but if every day you wake up with the idea, I have to change the system, that's a heavy burden. So I think, yeah. How I see it is like one woman or one baby, one couple of parents or parents at a time.

[00:38:12] Margot van Dijk: Where you zoom in and create space for them to, yeah, discover their autonomy, discover the process, and then next to that, like also I would also say birth theme, not for being at the birth, but more like other. Birth workers that you really feel you can cry and laugh with, recharge with maybe sometimes complain about the stupid things you've seen in the field.

[00:38:36] Margot van Dijk: And also dream big. To dream big with them. I don't know, maybe you wanna also build a birth farm like Anna, make gaskin or anything, like dream big too, but don't feel like you have to wake up every morning and grab your swords to fight the system because yeah, you're gonna be burnt out. I think. 

[00:38:57] Iris Josephina: Yeah. I love that you brought up, to not have the feeling that you need to fight something.

[00:39:03] Iris Josephina: I feel everywhere in our society there is this attitude of having, like to fight the big systems regardless of the field that you're in, but the harsh fight will completely distract you from the passion that you can have for the field that you chose. 

[00:39:22] Iris Josephina: And I think as a baby doula at 23, I definitely had this feeling of yeah, we need to like change the entire system and it's really bad and I.

[00:39:33] Iris Josephina: It actually burned me out, like you said, and It's now like enjoying like the small steps, the small victories of your clients and seeing them transform in front of you. Like how powerful is that, that you can Yeah. At such a short period of time, of nine months or briefer that you can see this person transform.

[00:39:55] Iris Josephina: And also see them make this rite of passage from a person without children to all of a sudden a parent. And that you can witness and accompany this. Like for me right now, that's like the biggest victory. Yeah. if I can support people to have a positive experience. that's the big change that I want to see.

[00:40:16] Margot van Dijk: Yeah, exactly. That is, if I 

[00:40:18] Iris Josephina: imagine that every single birth worker, like every single birth worker on your platform is doing that on their own small scale. And imagining how many people we are. 

[00:40:29] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. 

[00:40:30] Iris Josephina: Like it's big. It's already big. 

[00:40:32] Margot van Dijk: Exactly. I think so too. For sure. And then it's much healthier for yourself as well.

[00:40:38] Iris Josephina: Yeah. And it doesn't take away the pleasure in the work because I feel if you Yeah. Do this work, there's also a big chunk of it may be pleasureful for you, to do your work. Like you can't have joy in your work. 

[00:40:49] Margot van Dijk: Yeah, exactly. And when 

[00:40:51] Iris Josephina: it's a fight, it's easier to take that out, that joy part out.

[00:40:57] Iris Josephina: and if people want to find you, if people want to become a member of your platform, where can they find you? 

[00:41:05] Margot van Dijk: Oh yeah, Instagram would be the best place. So Rajo, good luck spelling 

[00:41:12] Iris Josephina: the Dutch word. I'll 

[00:41:13] Margot van Dijk: put it in the notes. Yeah, And then my platform is Fra Fru. So that is where you can find me.

[00:41:21] Margot van Dijk: Yeah. That are the main sources. 

[00:41:23] Iris Josephina: Amazing. I will paste all of that in the notes so people can definitely 

[00:41:28] Margot van Dijk: Cool. 

[00:41:28] Iris Josephina: Find it. And I just want to. reaffirm like this platform has a part for birth workers, but it also has a part for people who are pregnant. So in whatever field you belong, whatever group you belong, 

[00:41:41] Margot van Dijk: definitely 

[00:41:42] Iris Josephina: there is something for you, if you're trying to get pregnant, if you are pregnant, if you're a postpartum or you're a birth worker.

[00:41:48] Iris Josephina: You can be satisfied on that platform, for sure. Yeah. Yes. And I just wanna thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for your knowledge, for all the work that you do, and for coming on here to share it with us and share your passion. Yeah. Thanks so much. It was a 

[00:42:07] Margot van Dijk: pleasure. 

[00:42:10] Iris Josephina: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please, share it with others, with your friends, with your family.

[00:42:21] Iris Josephina: Post about it on social media, or leave a rating or a review on all the platforms to catch all the latest news from me. You can follow. At the Planting Seeds Podcast on Instagram or at Cycle Seeds on Instagram, or you can go to my website, www cycle seeds com. Thank you again so much, and I'll see you next time.